Showing posts with label chickens. Show all posts
Showing posts with label chickens. Show all posts

Thursday, March 28, 2013

Snapshots of Oliver Part One

We've just got back from six days in Oliver.  Well in fact the first day was spent getting prepared to leave, which took us until lunchtime, and then four hours driving, and the 6th day was the same thing in reverse.  The four full days in between were relaxing though, sort of.

We always do lots of walking.  Most of it on the dyke along the channeled Okanagan River.  Easy for us to get to, and easy for Calli to walk along, and the dogs can be off leash as long as we are out of the town boundaries.  Not that we don't see a lot of people breaking that rule, but being new in town, we are starting out at least by being 'good'.

There are some patches of prickly pear cactus off the beaten path, so every once in a while we'd see Jake or Luna trying to walk while holding up a leg or two, and I'd tell them to wait and go and pull the long spines out of their leg or paw.  Maybe one day they'll figure it out and stay on the track.
Calli was happy, she had her rock, and Jake had found a piece of wood that was almost like a square ball.

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At this particular part of the dyke, there is a scrappy looking  farm.  Not a big farm, but one of those that has all sorts of paddocks and fields and rough looking buildings.  There seems to be just about every sort of farm animal there.  Cattle, horses, a llama, sheep, goats, ducks, chickens, and this last time we saw pigs wandering around a big paddock.  The chickens though, they had the best accommodations.  

Have an old RV that you can't sell?
Turn it into an instant chicken coop!
See the ramp leading to the door?
Maybe the hens are laying their eggs in the kitchen cupboards!

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Gotta say though....  Our hens don't have such deluxe accommodations, but they do have green grass!
Here's some of the new hens.  They are all brave enough to go outside now, and one of them is laying an egg.

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And they can lay out and sun bathe.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013

Chicken Day

Yesterday was chicken day.  We were picking up 55 'ready to lay' pullets from the hatchery.  Of course it is never quite as simple as that.  First it involves 'rehoming' the hens we already have in that coop.  We have two coops.  This was the south coop.  They are small coops, and there's a limit to the number of hens we can have in them.  The hens in that coop had originally been purchased about this time, two years ago.  They were supplemented with 20 more hens purchased in the summer of last year.  Then due to coyote predation, the numbers had been whittled down a lot.  We had marked the hens from last summer with a leg band.  So we moved what was left of those 20 over to the north coop, whose numbers had been reduced also.  There were 12 hens remaining.  I had planned on emptying that coop after Christmas, but we were always able to sell all the eggs, so I hadn't needed to.  Then suddenly we get a call from the hatchery that our pullets will be ready the next week.  (They never seem to be able to tell you an exact date much beforehand).  I did what I normally do, put an ad on Craigslist for the 12 old hens.  Within an hour or two, I had the first reply.  Phoned them, had a long conversation, and arranged for them to come that night.  They were going to phone me as they were leaving home, or if something came up and they couldn't come that night, they'd let me know that too, and they'd come the next night.  For any of you that have had a lot experience selling things on Craigslist....well you can guess how that went.  They didn't phone and they didn't come.  The next evening I contacted the next person on the list.  Sounded like he was coming that evening, you guessed it, he didn't come either.  I took off my 'gone,pending pickup' addition to the ad, and changed it to 'still available'.  Posted an ad in the Vancouver section as well as the Fraser Valley.  Got a reply quickly, yep, want them all, will come after dark, here's my phone number.  Called and her mailbox was full.  Forwarded my number, emailed her back.  Phoned twice later and was able to leave messages, but got no response.  By now we are at Friday evening.  We have to pick the new hens up on Monday.  We need time to get the coop cleaned out, and I always like to pressure wash it between flocks, so it needed time to dry.  My option now was to take them to the auction on Saturday morning, to be sure they would be gone.  I had two more replies.  Phoned the next one.  Managed to convince them that they needed to come that evening, which they did, thank goodness.  Larry cleaned out the coop Saturday morning.  I pressure washed it in the afternoon.  Took the nest boxes out and pressure washed them too.  Left it all to dry until Monday morning, and then put things all back together again.  Made a few adjustments to how things were arranged, spread some hay around on the floor and in the nest boxes and we were good to go.

When we arrived home with the 55 pullets in various wire cages and dog crates, Luna immediately realized there was something exciting in the truck.  She was quivering with excitement, and once we opened the back of the truck she just sat....and stared....and stared. There is no way in a photo to capture the bottled excitement in that one black and white dog.  Calli and Jake showed no interest at all.  Jake kept hoping though that WE would show some interest in his stick.

That top cage had a previous 'meeting' with Larry and the tractor, and needless to say, the cage came out the loser.
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Luna escorted us back and forth down the hill, and then ran under the coop, her favourite spot to be in that chicken field, while we unloaded the birds into the coop.   She's not really interested in the chickens as individuals,  in fact I had to coax her into the coop.  I'm not sure what it is that gets her all wound up about them.

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Since these birds are raised in a barn, and are shocked at the sudden change in their lives, they do not rush to venture outside.   While I was watching them after they were all unloaded, something set them off and there was a great kerfuffle,  a virtual chicken tornado, and this hen flew about 30 feet out of the open door.

This doesn't LOOK like Kansas!
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I was hoping I would just be able to walk up to her and pick her up, and as I got behind her she suddenly flew the 30 feet back, landed outside the door, and walked back in.  I couldn't have planned it any better.

Today, I had the little 'chicken' door open, but didn't see any venture outside.  Later this afternoon I went down there and propped the 'man' door open for a while.  A few got brave and stepped a foot or two outside the door.  Baby steps!  Hopefully tomorrow they will be a little braver.  It will be a couple of weeks or so before these young ladies start to lay.  That gives them a chance to get used to the outdoors and eat some greens and live a more organic lifestyle before they start producing eggs.

Monday, December 24, 2012

Bah Humbug

Trying to stay with a Christmas theme, but at the moment I'm not feeling very jolly.  There's words I'd much rather use, or one word, and it starts with F:(

We got hit again, as in something came and went on a killing spree in our north chicken field this time.  I was out yesterday afternoon, and Larry was just returning from a 40 minute walk with the dogs.  As he got close to home he heard a chicken cackling, and then more than one chicken.  He arrived home to discover another massacre.  No bodies this time, but 6 chickens missing, three injured, one of which was dead by last night.  He and David, who had been watching a football game on the TV at the time, hunted around.  They found chickens in shock hidden in weird places.  There were patches of feathers all around the field.  There was no evidence of where anything(s) had come in or out.  I did a pretty good search of the perimeter this morning, and there are no chicken feathers outside the fence.  No evidence of coyotes going over or under.  It's a bloody frustrating mystery.  I just feel so furious, and helpless.....and sick.

We went to bed last night (I guess that goes without saying).  My clock wasn't showing the time.  It is one of those things that broadcasts the time onto the wall or ceiling.  It's great!  Larry had been doing some cleaning and had knocked it to the floor.  I finally got the time working, but it was showing three hours later than it should.  Finally found the right button to fix that.
Luna usually sleeps in our room, on a mat in the corner, but sometimes she does that reverse sneezing thing, it can be quite bad and go on for a long time, usually around 5am.  And when she figures it's time for you to get up, if you happen to rustle the sheets even slightly, she walks over and pokes you with her cold nose, and 'encourages' you to get up.  Larry moves, and she comes and gives me the cold nose.  So I started shutting her out of our room so I would get a better sleep, since I need all the help I can get some nights.  If she's not in our room, when she thinks we should get up, she starts doing a gentle woof every ten seconds or so from the living room, which wakes me up.  Larry sleeps through it all.  So I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.  Last night she was in our room.  She must have eaten something gross, because she was stinking up our room something fierce.  Also, the Fat Ewe, was baaing the sheep field.  Kind of like Luna's morning living room woof.  Not loud, but regular.   Unusual for sure.  I listened for a while, and figured I had to check it out, because there was no way I'd fall asleep while that was going on.  It was already past midnight.   The Fat Ewe and Young Ewe were stood in the field, which was strange.  Normally they would have been in the barn. This is the field where the chicken massacre took place, it's also the sheep field.  The sheep were out in the hayfield when the killing took place.  I have to wonder what the result would have been in the sheep had been in there.   So there I am in my nightie and crocs with a flashlight, in the drizzle, trying not to slip in the mud.  (Going downstairs to get boots and a jacket is too much work and gets the dogs all wound up, barking etc). The Old Ewe is down on her side, thrashing away in the barn.  That was weird too.  She hasn't done that in more than a month.  Has actually been doing quite well for an old lady.  Anyway, I heaved her to her feet and went back in.  Shut Luna out of the bedroom.  Finally fell asleep.  Was the Fat Ewe looking out for her friend?  Something similar happened before.

The alarm went off  at 6am.  What the...?  All the messing around with the clock had somehow got the alarm turned on.  I fumbled in the dark and thought I turned it off.  It started up again 8 minutes later.  Fumbled around again and finally got it right, I think.  (I'd better remember to check it when I go to bed tonight) Luna knows that the alarm is all about.  Since there was no sounds of anyone moving in the bedroom, she started her woof, ten seconds of silence, woof, etc.  I wanted to just yell at her from the bedroom, but didn't want to wake Larry, (it amazes me what he can sleep through) so I stormed out there and gave her heck and tried to reassure Jake that it wasn't HIM that I was mad at.  Went back to bed.  Couldn't get back to sleep.  Got up earlier than usual, and was heading outside to have a look around, see if any chickens had come out of hiding.  Got downstairs to the utility room where Calli sleeps.  As most of you know, Calli has nerve damage, which among other things resulted in some loss of bladder control, and no bowel control.  We have to make sure she pees in the evening.  Larry thought he had accomplished that.  Obviously not, the utility room was a disaster area.  Feeling like the jolly Christmas elf I was not.

Anyway, after my long wander outside, in the field next door, I'm feeling just as frustrated.  There is no evidence of what happened to those chickens.  Mink or weasel, no, they wouldn't/couldn't have carried 6 chickens off.  A family of raccoons? maybe, but then we'd at least find some feathers on the other side of the fence. Same for coyotes, but how did they get in?   Eagles, sure, but they don't work in flocks, maybe in a pair, and we've had one grab a chicken before now, but 6 chickens?  It is just like the chickens were lifted off into the sky, and the worst thing is not knowing what we are up against.  Is it coincidence it happened when the dogs weren't here?

                                                                   Bah Humbug!

Thursday, December 20, 2012

Back To Our Regularily Scheduled Programming

The excitement of yesterday morning's snowfall came to an end about noon when it started to rain.  So this morning we are back to damp and drizzle  and a bit of wet mush left on the ground, which is pretty normal for us.  I was out there in the drizzle about 1:30 yesterday, collecting eggs so I'd have enough for our customers in White Rock that afternoon.  I looked over the fence and what did I see....
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Yep, that damn silly persistent hen had flown up to the top of the fence and landed out in the snow, and had plodded her way down the field to her favourite laying spot.   I darkened the photo to try make the tracks stand out.  That big blob is where she landed and then you can see her track winding off into the distance to the left of my footsteps.   I slogged my way down there to have a look, and there she was.

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Really?  You'd rather lay your egg here on the cold wet ground? (At least there was less snow under the trees)  Not a good place to raise your kids you know!  That the chicken coop in the background between the trees, so it was a fair slog.  Considering that most of the hens took one look outside and elected to remain in the coop, well she's one determined hen.

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And she was sitting on one massive egg, just like Tuesday's.

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I did help her out a bit and carried her back to the coop.  At least this morning the snow won't be as deep when she makes her trek.
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Wednesday, December 19, 2012

Winter Wonderland Wednesday

Just in case you were wondering if we had fallen off the edge of the earth, or had got buried in a snowdrift, or were running in circles and couldn't find our way out of the mall.......here's a few pictures from this morning.

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We've flirted with snow the last few days.  I drove home from White Rock on Sunday evening in a blizzard, which petered out to half strength after a few miles, and by the time I was half way home it had fizzled out completely, and there was nothing here.


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There was a dusting of snow on the ground both Monday and Tuesday morning, but this morning there was a few inches, which has just about doubled itself in the last three or four hours.  The chickens were not impressed, and thankfully we cleaned out both the coops and the sheep barn yesterday, as they will be getting a lot of use if this keeps up.  Some of the bolder hens made the 50' dash to the sheep barn this morning, but they'll probably lay their eggs in there, because the snow is now deeper and they won't want to make their way back.

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The dogs enjoy it of course, although it's quite a workout for Calli, as the snow impedes her back legs, and she has to drag them through it.

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Lovely to look at, but the novelty will wear off fast.  We are right around the freezing mark, so the snow is great for snowmen and snowballs, but not so great for driving in.

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For once Luna's undercarriage won't be covered in mud, yay!

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The hen from the south chicken coop that  usually flies over the fence and heads to the right down that row of evergreens, and lays an egg in the open on some dirt, wouldn't have been too pleased this morning.  Hopefully she will be forced to lay her egg on some dry hay in a cosy nest box.  Poor thing!:)

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And speaking of malls, I haven't even ventured there yet this shopping season.  Probably haven't been there since last year.  Maybe tomorrow:)

Tuesday, November 27, 2012

The Pumpkin Party

Remember these?  Well I did pick them and they sat in the wheelbarrow for a week or so.  We had a couple of nights were it dipped below freezing, and the big pumpkin got soft and rotten on the bottom.  Before it turned into a mushy mess in the wheelbarrow, I carried over to one of the chicken fields.


I dropped it from waist height, figuring it would smash on impact, but it actually took some serious rubber boot stomping before I was able to break it open.

I called all the chickens to the party, and they dug right in.

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Except for the little rooster.  He kind of hung off to the side.  He's really wary and hard to get close to, and maybe he's still feeling embarrassed about his coyote ravaged tail.  It's taking it's time to grow back in.   

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He was actually in the 'wrong' field.  The last few days he seems to have taken a hankering to visit they other hens in the north field.  He just flies up to the top of the fence, throws a few crows out there to let the world know that he a big little tough rooster and he's going to go calling on some other ladies.  Then he flies down to the ground, swaggers across the lawn, throwing out a few more crows along the way, and then flies over the next fence.  Thank goodness the rest can't fly as well as him.  Or maybe it would be a good thing, it would be harder for the coyotes to get them.


Henrietta, you've spilled some pumpkin on your rather generous front porch.
Let me clean it off for you

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And when the sheep came back to that field late in the afternoon, they finished off what was left of the pumpkin.  Actually, I'd taken most of it out, just left a few pieces for the sheep.  Today when the sheep went out to the hay field, I threw the other half back to the chickens, and then the sheep finished the rest of it off tonight.  I'm thinking I should cook up the smaller pumpkin and make a pumpkin loaf or two.  And if I procrastinate on that long enough, and that pumpkin starts to go all soft as well, you know where it will end up.





Tuesday, November 6, 2012

Morning Humour

I needed a laugh this morning....and got it:)



Here's the followup



And the t-shirt
http://www.shirtsunlimitedonline.com/#!__deer-t-shirt

An update on the chicken situation - We found another body in the morning, so a total of 6 dead.  After a search along the fence line, we found feathers, and one horizontal wire on the fence that was broken, which created a hole big enough for a coyote to get through.  No doubt it or them were coming in and out all week while there we were away and there were no dogs here.  So our job this winter is to clear all the brush and the thorny blackberry vines away from our side, and reinforce the whole 200' fence line.  In the meantime the few hens that are left there will remain fenced into the smaller area.


Monday, November 5, 2012

Livestock and Deadstock

The Old Ewe, who is the grand old lady of our three sheep flock, is about 15 years old, and looking her age.  Yesterday I noticed that she was not doing well at all, and Meredith said while that we were away, she looked depressed.  Not depressed because we were away, depressed as in not acting normal and looking, well, depressed, head hanging, not moving around much, not eating much.  This morning we were scrambling around to dash off to one of the pre-Christmas farmers markets at White Rock.  Larry came in to say that the old ewe did not look well at all.  She was laid out on her side in the barn and he couldn't get her to move.  It didn't surprise me at all, after seeing her yesterday I figured her time had come, and she would most likely be dead when we arrived back home this afternoon.  Sure, she's been here since birth, and I know her well, but she is a sheep and not a pet, and I can be a bit practical about that sort of thing.  In other words,  no heroic measures were going to be taken.

I was doing my usual post market Sunday , 'push her around the grocery store' visit with my mother.  We had two vehicles and Larry had headed home.  I received a text telling me to bring home molasses.  The Old Ewe was still alive, and she needed an energy boost.  After playing phone tag, I finally talked to Larry in person.  He said it was a mess at our place.  I asked him what he meant.  He said there were four dead chickens in the south field, and one badly injured one.  One hen from that field, and the rooster, where in the north field.  Another couple of hens were out on the driveway.  I drove home in the dark and pelting rain, and then climbed into some rain gear and we wandered around the field.  We found another dead hen, for a total of five.  The whole back half of one was all eaten.  The others appeared untouched, although they were rain drenched and it was hard to tell for sure.  No obvious wounds at least.  Tomorrow in the daylight we'll check the fence line for clues.  The death scene didn't fit any of these descriptions.

 
There were only 27 hens in that coop tonight.  It's been a while since we've counted them, and some of the older hens have dropped dead in the last while, but there's an awful lot of hens unaccounted for.
We are guessing that it is coyotes again.  Was there a whole pack in the field while everyone was gone for the day?  I feel bad that we didn't keep the chickens safe, and subjected them to the stress of whatever predator was after them.  It must have happened in the morning, as there were only 16 eggs in that coop when they were collected tonight, and there should have been twice that many. Quite a few hens didn't get a chance to lay today.  It's so bloody frustrating.  If it wasn't for the income the hens bring it, I'd just get right out of the egg business.  Four of the dead hens were the young ones that have only been laying a few months.  They have a black band around one leg.  The fifth body had no legs, but I think it might have been an older hen.  We'll have to pull the other fence back across and keep the hens in 'jail' (a smaller more confined area) again.  I'd just let them out a week or so ago, after the previous attack.

The Old Ewe looks like death warmed over, but she drank some warm molasses water, ate an apple, as well as a bunch of soaked in warm water soy hull pellets, and is munching on some hay.  I guess it's not quite her time yet.  Unfortunately some of the hens can't say that.

Tuesday, October 9, 2012

Thanksgiving Dinner

Thanksgiving Day in Canada is always the second Monday of October.  A lot of people like to have their big dinner on Sunday, but we used to always have it on Monday.  Mostly because we were at a farmers market on Sunday, and was I not up to cooking a big meal that day.  It would have been the same this year, but we discussed it and came up with a solution.  
Meredith said she was willing to make an attempt at cooking the dinner on Sunday, while we were at the market.
That way I was able to pick up my mother, who is in a care home about 5 minutes away from the market, and bring her back to our place for dinner.  It was nice to get home after the market and really have nothing to do.  
So we had turkey and homemade stuffing and cranberry sauce.  Also roasted carrots (ours), green beans (also ours), sweet potato casserole, and brussel sprouts.  I made some gravy, but that was all I had to do (well other than clean up afterwards).  The meal was great, and we had a much better time that this picture indicates.  


David and his girlfriend headed back to her place, and dropped my mum off on the way.  They left just in time for me to be able to sit down and catch 'The Amazing Race.'  You'd think I'd planned it that way!  It worked out about as perfectly as it could.

Larry came in that evening after closing up the coops, and reported that there were patches of chicken feathers all over the south chicken field.  



We went out the next morning and had a better look.
I know who these belong to.



Our wary little banty rooster had one close call, and has an almost tailless butt to show for it.
It must have been his lucky day.  There were a few hens that weren't so lucky.


The coyotes left their calling card, at least four or five times.
Brazen buggers:(
This was probably all happening while Meredith was merrily cooking away with the music playing.  She said the dogs were barking once at a coyote in the field next door.



Sure enough there was another hole dug under the fence from next door's.  The hole came into the chicken field, and also into the hay field next to it.  I got a piece of the farm fence, shaped it into a blob, and shoved it and jammed it in to fill in the hole.  So far the coyotes haven't touched it.



To be extra safe the chickens are fastened back into their jail, which is about 4000sq ft, compared to their regular field which is about six times that size.


I guess the coyotes couldn't find any turkeys for dinner, so decided to settle for the next best thing.
I think they should become vegetarians.




Thursday, July 26, 2012

Breakfast

The first thing the hens do when you let them out in the morning, is to put their heads down and start pecking at grass.  Since they peck at the first grass they see, the grass near the coop is always quite short.



Then a whole bunch headed over to the water bucket to wash that grass down.  We keep the hose dripping so the bucket is always full.



After opening up both coops, I took my morning wander through the garden, and had some breakfast appetizers.



I could stuff myself with these peas, pods and all.



And then Larry comes out and gives Pride his breakfast - 'senior horse pellets'.



Hey lady, since you aren't sharing those peas and raspberries, how about getting us our breakfast?



No food, no toy throwing.....boring!



Some dogs take matters into their own mouths, and help themselves to what Pride drops.  



Finally!




Even Smudge gets in on the 'raw act'.  Somehow she seems to magically appear when it's dog feeding time, and requests her share too.

Monday, July 9, 2012

Farm Vehicle

There's something very interesting in here


 Oh wow, you've brought home some more coyote bait


And there's some in the trunk too! 

When a certain family member, who is not known as Larry, decides to give a too close introduction of the truck door to a concrete pillar while visiting her mother, and the truck is now in the body shop being fixed, sometimes you have to 'make do' with your farm vehicle. 
So how many chickens can you fit in a Toyota Echo?  And those dog crates make excellent chicken crates.  All the crap is contained, and they wash out easily with a hose.
This could have been another repurposing post, for both the car and the crates.

We were only picking up 20 new pullets, although had been on the list to get 54.  We were supposed to get those 54 in April, but just got the phone call last week.  Since we are now in the middle of market season, and our coops only hold a finite number of birds, I had to say no to the 54, and am just going to try make it work with 20.  To take the 54, I would have had to get rid of the birds we already had, which would have meant that we'd have no eggs from that coop for a few weeks until the new birds started laying, and some unhappy market customers.  
Generally I ask for the first lot of hens in March, and sell the old hens from one coop, and put the new ones in there.  In April I do the same with the other coop.  Then our first farmers market starts in May, we have enough eggs to sell at that one, and by the time our second market starts at the end of the month, the second batch of hens are laying as well.
But this year I didn't phone in March like I usually do and ask when the pullets were going to be ready.  So I didn't get called until the end of April I think it was.  And then the call for the second lot didn't come until last week.  So... lesson learned...the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  Remember to phone the hatchery at the beginning of March next year.  I had my name put on the list when I was there today.

Because these 20 hens are going into the coop with last years hens, we wanted to be able to mark them so we can tell them apart in the Fall. The usual way is with leg bands. We have bought the spiral ones before from our local Co-op. 

 They can be a bit a awkward to get on, but do expand a bit if the hen's leg gets bigger than the opening in the band.  A few times I've had the point at the end of the band get caught on the leg and the leg starting to grow around it.  It was an ugly mess
The cheaper, easier way is to just use zip ties.  Since these birds are close to fully grown, we just put the tie on loose, and cut off the extra length.


We finally figured out a routine.  Larry was the chicken wrangler, and I was the bander.  We ended up doing most of the hens in this position.  Some of them just wouldn't settle when held by the legs and hung upside down, (which is the standard method of carrying chickens).  You should see the guys at the hatchery come walking out holding 5 chickens in each hand.
And it's probably the first time this hen had been out in sunlight, as they are raised in barns.


Larry learned quickly, after a few close calls, that's best to have the back end facing away from you. 
It's called projectile crapping.
When we grabbed the first hen, she screamed blue murder, and a bunch of the old hens came running, wings  spread and feathers fluffed out, all ready to attack Luna, who didn't even notice.  She was focused on the screaming hen.
They never want to come out of the crates.  If we don't have to band them, usually we just carry the crate to the coop and then tip it up to dump the hens out.  And the hens all flap their wings to stay at the other end of the crate, and generally you have to reach in and pull some of them out. 
They really do not want to leave, they want to stay with what they now consider familiar territory.


It'll be a couple of weeks or so before they start laying, which gives them lots of time to get used to being free ranging birds.  As always, some of the birds look closer to that part of their life than others.

And here's a plug for the Toyota Echo.
We bought it with 115, 000 Km on it.  It now has 256, 000 km. Other than new tires and some brake work, the only engine maintenance we have done were oil changes.  Just a few weeks ago it developed a stutter.  David changed the oil, put in a new air filter, and new spark plugs, and we are good to go.
Larry made some little bench things to fill in the foot wells in the back seat, to make one big platform back there.  The three dogs fit easily, and there is loads of trunk space.  Meredith has the hatchback version, which is cuter, but there's much more space in ours.
It's now ten years old, and we'll drive it until it dies. It gets 50 mpg on the highway.
And it makes a great substitute farm vehicle when you need it.  
We could fit a sheep in it if we needed to.
Hopefully we won't.